Kunichi Nomura (following, K.N)

When and how did you start making things?

Tom Sachs (following, T.S)

I always made things that I wanted, that I couldn’t have in some other way. My dad wanted this camera and he couldn’t afford it, so he got a lesser camera. In school I went and I made a model of it in clay, as an 8 year old boy. That sort of predicted in some way the strategy I use now. I made a Hermès Kelly bag out of plywood, and now mine’s more expensive than all but the albino, crocodile version. This idea is not limited to superficial fashion objects—it also includes the cosmos. I have always been interested in space travel, and I made my own space program called “Space Program” which actually involved the tea ceremony. We’re all here in Japan because I am doing a “tea ceremony” show at Tokyo Opera City Art Gallery, and it is a great honor to be invited to Japan because I love the tea ceremony. But it’s the snobbiest, most elite thing, and I could never have access to it. First of all, it’s very pretentious for an American to do it, and second, it takes so much time. For all the time I spent studying I have always had so much respect for how the tea ceremony encompasses all of the arts. It takes 15 years of solid dedication to be a proper guest. Anway, I have kind of a shitty American attitude about things where “I want it and want it now.”

K.N

I like that.

T.S

Yea, I know you do, that’s why we’re friends—it’s that attitude that we take toward making things. Because for me it’s all about the things, the objects. Behind every object, whether it’s a chawan or your car, there’s whole culture, a history. Your Ford was made when America was coming up, and that car was the greatest and most beautiful thing. You understand the story of that. In the same way this tea ceremony exhibition or the products that we have at Beams are a reflection of what I can do with my resources.

Also I just went to Noto Peninsula, and the things I saw there have evidence of humans being involved. There was handwork on everything. I met some craftsmen who were working in traditional ways that have been going on for generations. I was so impressed that though there are more modern ways of doing things, he and his family do things the old way. Not because they have something to prove, but because it’s more sustainable. Using local materials, materials that they find nearby. The telepathic unity that these (iPhones) are creating is removing individuality. You take a picture of a beautiful cappuccino, there are a million beautiful cappuccinos on Instagram. So it’s getting harder to find an authentic representation of the individual. So when you look at my chawan you always see fingerprints. I used porcelain because if you look under a magnifying glass you’ll see my fingerprints. My literal signature is on there and the device has none of that.

K.N

But we’re losing craftmanship . In this instance, I think the son took over the family business, but I’m not sure the next generation will. You know we really live at the end of an era.

T.S

And it’s not just Japan, it’s everywhere But it has a little more protected care . We get to enjoy it during our short life a little bit longer. I think my intention is to make heirlooms, make things that are meant to last. That is my goal with the sculpture—to make things that will have lasting value physically and ideologically.

K.N

I think you’re doing really well.

T.S

Time will tell, I hope so.

K.N

Another thing of beauty about your work is: You said that your Hermès bag became more expensive than an actual Hermès bag. At the same time you always make these DIY things that we can afford, and these things are always interesting. You play with words as we discussed before. You make a deck of playing cards, you make a zine, you start to make things with Nike. Despite this, you are somehow a very respected artist in the art world.

T.S

I don’t know why.

K.N

Beams wanted to work with you. Not just because they love your work, but also because of the products you create for Nike and your sense of humor that comes out in things like your tagging project (editor’s note: one of Tom’s projects involve tagging a “Tom Sachs” plastic name tag on other people’s belongings without permission that can only be removed by cutting the wire by pliers). I think the people who love fashion and culture dig all of these different elements.

T.S

Well, let me start by saying I’m very happy about the Beams collaboration because the small items I make are the things that create a true connection with my community. I wouldn’t be able to afford to buy my own art. It’s too expensive. I believe there is art in everything. There is art that’s just as important even if it’s $10. It’s in a different place in the consumer opportunity spectrum. It’s very important to do things like collaborate with Beams. Not everyone has the money, so I don’t want to be elitist. I enjoy the elitism and the resources because they allow me to do bigger projects. But I don’t really like money. It’s an illusion by which we all live and die.

K.N

For Beams, you made a limited number of NASA folding chairs. I don’t know if I’ve ever laughed so much as when I first saw the chair) When you make things, you never miss the point, I always laugh. Now, I think you can get away with putting the NASA logo on anything you want. But you never make a bad decision.

T.S

You have to be careful because there’s a lot of stupid NASA shit out there. It’s a fashion trend now. I have to be very careful because you can’t just put it on anything, it has to be the right thing.

K.N

How did you find the right thing?

T.S

You say, “What would Charlie Parker do?”

K.N

*laughs* Improvise, be an original…

T.S

You improvise, but you also practice a lot before you improvise. He improvised like crazy but he also rehearsed like crazy. It’s very careful. There’s no secret except one thing, and that’s to “be prepared and do the work,” and when the opportunity arises, you know what to do.

K.N

What else did you make for Beams for this collaboration? The NASA T-shirt, “It won’t fail because of me?” That phrase basically came from a quote from a NASA program? I don’t think many Japanese audiences know about it, so we should explain.

T.S

“It won’t fail because of me” is an internal slogan, and in a way it is very Japanese. It is the part of Japanese culture that I love the most. This slogan was created during the Space Race, of trying to get to the moon before the Russians. . There were 30,000 people working on this one project, one rocket. This project could have had a lot of potential failures. And the slogan expresses the sentiment of “well, it might fail, but it won’t fail because of my responsibility, it won’t fail because of what I did,” meaning everyone was confident in that they performed their part perfectly. This slogan is about dedication and focus and this is something I see everywhere in Japan from the smallest detail to the biggest thing.

K.N

But these words don’t really translate well here. I think most of the customers might think “oh, it’s just a cute phrase from a schoolbook.”

T.S

It’s really about working on something that seem impossible with a lot of people. The more people, the more things get fucked up. It’s a slogan that says, well if it gets fucked up, it won’t get fucked up because of me. And if everyone does that then you can go to the moon and prove that God is dead. But everyone has to believe. If one person doesn’t believe then it doesn’t work.

K.N

This playing card looks good too.

T.S

Your DJ friend was playing Beatles “Come Together” on a 7-inch and it was a Japanese import, which is not so rare here. I remember always getting Japanese import records in the 80’s in US.. And there was a sticker on it. It was the Holy Grail if you got a Japanese import. It was the coolest thing for me. For me it was a status symbol. The little green Japanese import sticker, which is a tax stamp like cigarettes. The graphic and the text makes it special. It looks so much cooler to have the little green sticker.

K.N

You always like Japanese things. You like Makita tools, Toyota…

T.S

I like Japanese products from big expensive things like electronics, to small things like wood and hardware. There is a sensitivity.

K.N

So this time, you are here for a tea ceremony, right?

T.S

Right, well it’s my tea ceremony. Technology is a true development of tradition, so it’s building on all those things. It’s an interpretation, where we’re doing it the Sachs way. Still respecting the tradition, but fucking with it a little bit, remixing it. It’s like the dub version of a tea ceremony. I think that’s fair.

K.N

Nobody would say that there’s ever been a dub version of a tea ceremony. It looks pretty dubby bro.

T.S

I wonder what the tea masters think.

K.N

I think if they are real tea masters, they should appreciate it. They should be happy that people improvise and create in a new way.

T.S

And I have met tea masters, and they all love it for that reason. True tea lovers appreciate it because the tradition of tea is about improvisation. And Sen no Rikyū taught Hideyoshi that it was cool to dress in a simple, stripped down way.

K.N

Wabi-sabi.

T.S

Yea, and he used a bamboo for a vase. In many ways he predated the work of Marcel Duchamp, who found ready-made things and put them elsewhere and changed their context. Almost 300 years earlier, but it’s the same idea.

K.N

That’s why you put a motor in Chasen then.

T.S

American style.

K.N

You had a peanut butter cracker as a Chagashi. That’s an American sweet, so it’s very authentic to you.

T.S

Yes, it’s authentic to me. I think that what makes it authentic is that I am American, and I do peanut butter and Ritz Crackers and motors and all that stuff. That’s why I think it has resonance, because maybe you like it because you like my culture. Right? And it becomes a true marriage of different cultures.

K.N

You make your own things, but you get the point in the end. Because you welcome your guest, hosting, and having a routine.

T.S

The tranquility, hospitality, respect, and harmony. These are the original ideas of the tea ceremony. And I work to incorporate it.

K.N

After I watched the video of your tea ceremony I cracked up. The sliding door is like a space shield, and the tray for peanut butter cracker is so tiny but perfectly cut. You held a tea ceremony for a Japanese tea master last time. Did he enjoy it? Did he laugh? Did you have good tea together?

T.S

I think so. It’s a challenge, but I think he appreciated it. Sensei Teranomo at the Urasenkei school in New York and I had a conversation and he said it’s very different from traditional tea ceremony. He said that he would not be able to perform my version of the tea ceremony. For me to do what he does, it would take a lifetime, maybe I could never. It’s like Kelly Slater surfing a wave. Even if I dropped everything I could never get to that place.
But it’s different, they’re different things and I think that’s what’s great about humanity. It’s that we are all specialists. Each of us specialize in different things, and that’s why we have friendships and growth in families, we bring different things together. And that’s very important.

K.N

Finally, I also want to discuss the sneaker kids. Some sneaker heads really love your shoes, but aren’t relating to what you’ve been doing as an artist. We want to use the Beams collaboration as an opportunity to send the people who come see the pop up to also go see the exhibition at the museum.

T.S

Yeah, I think this is a great opportunity. It’s strange, I’ve been working for so many years and now this one sneaker gets more attention than everything else. My Instagram is clogged with sneaker stuff. And I love the shoe, I think it’s a sculpture and has the same value. What I would say is the reason why the sneaker kids like the Mars Yard is because the materials are native. It all says what it is. That’s polyurethane, that’s rubber, that’s pig skin. And the sculptures possess those same properties. On the playing card decks you can see that it’s plywood. Or the photo of plywood. But you can see that everything is made out of. The Nike stuff that we do does the best job to show how it’s been built. It tells a story. If you like the Mars Yard, this is a way to go deeper into that culture, and to see that that idea is in the world around us, not just in my art but in other things too that you can see. I see it as a window to another world. Please come and see the exhibition if you want to take yourself to the next level. This show is proof that you can do anything you want in this life if you’re willing to work hard enough.